I Will Fear No Evil

topic posted Mon, October 11, 2004 - 1:30 PM by  Sam
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I just finished the book (well, about a week ago) and I have to say that I had a very mixed reaction to it. It seems to have a reputation as an extremely radical book, and in 1970 when it was published, that was probably true. However, I was continually struck not by how radical it was but instead by how *reactionary* it was by today's standards. Now that gay and lesbian relationships, transsexuality, sex-change operations, and polyamory are pretty well known and accepted (at least in my circles), and no longer carry the shock value they once had, it was rather disappointing to see that the radicalism stopped there, and that the rest of the values espoused in the book were so conservative by comparison.

Somehow Heinlein didn't seem to have any problem with characters who practiced free love, poly-amory/fuckery, gang bangs, etc., but then promised to "love, honor, and *obey*" (instead of "cherish") their husband, consciously used sex as a tool to manipulate people (well, I guess that's not necessarily reactionary, just distasteful), and seemed generally content to let men continue to have the lead role in society. With the exception of the main character, I do not recall any women in positions of power anywhere in the book: the judges were men, as well as the doctors, lawyers, police, personal bodyguards, the screener for the lunar colony, and even the artists (Joe Branca was the only one of these I recall, but still). The non-main-character women mostly seemed to be money-grubbing shrews (JSBS's ex-wives) or closet nymphomaniacs under a veneer or "nice" respectability (Tom's wife Olga).

The sex-as-manipulation I found particularly annoying, as it seemed that every time JSBS/JES didn't get her way, she would put on a pouty look and bare her breasts and offer kisses and the men would practically fall over themselves bending to her whim. To be fair, JSBS/JES backed it up with veiled threats, (monetary) bribes, and occasionally sound reasoning, but I found the behavior deceitful and underhanded; much better would have been to show how women can be strong, smart, and independent *without* having to resort to such tactics, and how men are not always just 'thinking with their other head' so to speak. And to be frank, Heinlein would have to show a *lot* more generally radical behavior before convincing me that thirteen-year-olds are ready for sex (Eve, at the end of the book).

I have my own reservations about polyamory which I have already posted to another thread here and will not belabor further other than to say that this book did not change my opinion that polyamory in the Real World in never so neat and free of complications as Heinlein presents here. Perhaps it is possible to have such a society, but if it comes along with a huge crime rate, rampant illiteracy, and such a casual understanding of the word "rape" as he presents in the book, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to live there no matter what the benefits.

To his credit, Heinlein did not shy from describeng homosexual relationships of both sexes, and did put a unique perspective on transgender issues well before such were accepted, or even recognized, in the mainstream. Ultimately, however, it was disappointing that the radical views were not carried out much further than they were. I'll be interested to see what other perspectives are posted here.
posted by:
Sam
offline Sam
Portland
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  • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

    Mon, October 11, 2004 - 6:01 PM
    Ok, I shouldn't get involved in these discussions, but here goes......


    >I have my own reservations about polyamory which I have already posted to another thread here and will not belabor further other than to say that this book did not change my opinion that polyamory in the Real World in never so neat and free of complications as Heinlein presents here.

    Of course not! NO relationship is as neat and free of complications as it is in a work of fiction! To expect otherwise is unrealistic, whether you're talking about poly relationships or mono relationships.

    >Perhaps it is possible to have such a society, but if it comes along with a huge crime rate, rampant illiteracy, and such a casual understanding of the word "rape" as he presents in the book, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to live there no matter what the benefits.

    Uh, admitedly I've only read the book twice, but I don't remember getting the impression from the book that the crime and poverty was as a result of polyamory. Perhaps I missed something though.

    Otter
    • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

      Mon, October 11, 2004 - 6:12 PM
      <<Of course not! NO relationship is as neat and free of complications as it is in a work of fiction! To expect otherwise is unrealistic, whether you're talking about poly relationships or mono relationships.>>

      Well, yeah. It just happens that I think that polyamory is *more* fraught with complications and idealistic expectations than even monogamy is. And some books do better than others in detailing the complications that come along with all relationships; I Will Fear No Evil seemed more simplistic than most in this respect.

      <<Uh, admitedly I've only read the book twice, but I don't remember getting the impression from the book that the crime and poverty was as a result of polyamory. Perhaps I missed something though.>>

      Sorry, didn't really mean to imply that polyamory was a *cause* per se of the crime rate and illiteracy, but that they did seem to come along with the society as a whole. If accepting one part of that society meant accepting the rest, I wouldn't want to.
  • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

    Sat, May 7, 2005 - 12:07 AM
    While I fully agree with Otter on the subject of polyamory, I have to agree with Sam on the rest of Fear No Evil. Its probably the RAH book I have least gone back to.

    Like many, I think Heinlein was very much a transitional writer. He wrote stuff that he thought would sell at the time he was writing, and tried to influence people to consider relatively new ideas (or at least new to the American midwest/mainstream) the result was books that, in hindsight were inconsistent, a bit of a mishmash. Even SISL has these warts. Then again, people change in the same sort of mishmash way -accepting some new ideas while clinging to others that seem rediculous in hindsight- so maybe RAH was just trying to be realistic there.

    Regardless, it is important to put him in his historical context. Much of his writing - or at least the mindset that created the writing - originated 50-60 years ago. Considering the pace of change in our times, thats as much of a difference as 500 years might have made in an earlier era.
    • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

      Sat, November 5, 2005 - 8:50 PM
      for me the question, that has stuck with me for years is:

      "What would Eunice do?"

      THAT was the Radical Concept for me.

      she still sits at the table of my advisors.

      I am Now in an open relationship of 6 years...
      She has Helped make that a Sucsess.

      william
      • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

        Mon, November 7, 2005 - 3:35 PM
        Here here!
        What would she do!?
        I know that this is way off of the line of thought BUT here goes!

        Was this book not simply about how a man and a woman connect at the rawest points?

        How we as human have thoughts that most never express, desires held in ...

        IMHO The essence of the book was the total accords created by them that caused the "sex" to occur - because it was there! Not sex being the predominant element.

        This is my favorite book of Heinlein, I think that I have read them all. Some several times. What is important before reading ANY of his books is to drop your preconceived notions and read it for what is written. He was not as multi level as Lewis Caroll - so don’t look for it to be.

        I too have walked several off the beaten paths and have Heinlein to thank for bringing a lot of it into perspective. Which is, as most things ... 80% of what we worry about never happens. Enjoy life as it comes to you!

        Total Heinlein Fan
        Gigi
  • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

    Fri, November 18, 2005 - 7:33 PM
    I mostly agree with you. I could only get about 70 percent through the book, after laboring through it because it was so boring, sexist, and annoyingly mostly only talked about sex in and of itself, though still shying over those parts. I found his discriptions of what Eunice wore torturous. But now, despite the fact that Stranger in a Strange Land was the most life-changing book I've read besides Siddhartha (and y'all can laugh at me about that if you want), I pretty much have moved past it and wish it was written itself with a second alternative version that was minus restrictions of the mid-20th century--possibly from more of the different characters' perspectives, with much less of a male take on the female mind. It would be cool if some different-gendered individuals could collaborate on such a project.
    If anyone's interested in a book that does a better job at what I think I Fear No Evil was trying to do, it was written for adolescents but in language that isn't so repetitive and childish as Harry Potter (though it IS fantasy and not Sci-Fi), it's called Fal the Dragon Harper, by Peter Patterson.
    • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

      Sat, December 10, 2005 - 3:20 PM
      Funnily enough, what comes through most vividly about this book for me has nothing to do with sex!

      I think of this as the novel where Heinlein shows the greatest compassion for characters who are not the typical Heinlein protagonist. Not all of these characters are go-getting superachievers and spaceflight fanatics; Heinlein conveys aching sympathy and genuine respect for people who are poor or disenfranchised or illiterate. Their world is falling apart due to social collapse, violent crime is rampant, the government has simply abandoned whole slum areas as unmanageable, and the world seems to have decided pollution is something you can't fix, only run away from. The story isn't about changing the world, but about retreating from its intractable problems -- inside mansions that are run like fortresses, or by setting off to the open sea, or finally by emigrating to the moon. Unlike the rest of Heinlein's work, space emigration here isn't a triumph; it's a last ditch escape. But in this book, Heinlein doesn't condemn the people who can't or don't take that escape route.

      It's far and away Heinlein's darkest novel, and I think he was well aware of the tension between the bleak picture of the future he was painting and all the wild sex going on the the foreground. It would be a mistake to concentrate only on the sex and miss the warning about the future.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: I Will Fear No Evil

        Fri, January 27, 2006 - 12:06 PM
        i think that rab has gotten it right, or at least coser than any other. the sex was a ditraction, but keep in mind that hienlen wrote predominantly to sell books. his audiance expected sex in his works. what i enjoyed was the insite on rah's take of the female mind. the sexes still don't get each other today, but if you ditch the sexism rah is not a bad translater.
        • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

          Thu, December 28, 2006 - 1:05 PM
          I agree with Freg... I think that the book has Little to do with "Sex" and more about Human intereaction and empowerment...

          Eunis and her husband were Liberated... they did no USE Sex as a weppon . they did not try to own/control eachothers genitals. they did Not treat other as PROPERTY.

          and I thought it was sort of Unique that she did not use Sex as a Wepon (which I feel many women and some men do) maybe she "Used" her sex ... but if she did it was In A Loving and Positive way.... ANY of the men around her would have willingly Laid Down their Lives for her... and it was Not for the Sex... it was becasue she treated them like HUMAN beings in a trully loving way... I am always baffeled when people assert that Heineilen was sexist ... or that this book is some how Sexist. when the Main Charicter (Eunis) is Such a Powerful and inteligent woman... who Teaches the Main Male Charictor SOOOOOoooooo Much.
          I do not get it.
          IMO
          William
          • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

            Thu, December 28, 2006 - 6:27 PM

            Thanks, guys.

            I am very female, and cannot tolerate sexism any more than I can jealousy, and have a fine-tuned nose for smelling out both of those sins. I have NEVER found any of Heinlein's works to be sexist. Far from it, they are delightfully empowering. However, some folks just don't seem to hear what he is actually saying.

            Grandma
            • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

              Thu, May 3, 2007 - 3:35 AM
              Grandma, please note: the claim of "sexism" is accompanied by the word "insite", among others. ;-)
              • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

                Thu, May 10, 2007 - 11:19 PM
                Hi TS,

                No, this was what got me going, until more thoughtful heads prevailed: "it was so boring, sexist, and annoyingly mostly only talked about sex"

                Yikes, it made me choke to see RAH called sexist. Almost incited me, for sure. :-)

                Love ya
                {hugs}
                • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

                  Wed, June 27, 2007 - 11:51 PM
                  Grand... you make me laugh... you Go girl!
                  lol "Incited me... " lol
                  I totaly agree with what you say here on this thread...
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: I Will Fear No Evil

                    Thu, June 28, 2007 - 10:59 AM
                    Thanks, Will. If even half of the people understood half of what Heinlein said, the world would be a fine place, indeed. Or at least "my kind of place".
                    :-)
                    hugs and kisses
                    • Re: I Will Fear No Evil

                      Fri, July 6, 2007 - 4:33 PM
                      Grandma says: "If even half of the people understood half of what Heinlein said, the world would be a fine place, indeed. Or at least "my kind of place".

                      I feel exactly the same way...

                      I was raised in an "Alien" culture (way more advanced than the one I currently live in...) as a young person... and then came back here to California...
                      Amerika seems Soooooo backwards to me in so Many ways in comparison ... so unwilling to even consider that it does Not have all the answers...

                      it make me Sad often...

                      some times I want to go back to "My Planet" but I do not know where that is... and even the "alien" Culture i was raised in, even though it was advanced and was welcoming of me... was NOT my own... and 3 months of near darkness every year is NOT for me.
                      (I guess that is why I am a hermit now.)
                      Will am I

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